tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post8631742804895485269..comments2024-01-19T19:28:16.564-08:00Comments on ScientistMother: raising my own little experimentS: Step up to the plate DrugMonkeyScientistMotherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02540317551396323613noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-80325660534517593602010-06-16T21:13:31.462-07:002010-06-16T21:13:31.462-07:00Padraig - I missed your last comments. You're ...Padraig - I missed your last comments. You're engaging in critiquing the validity or reality of issues, you criticize the methods that individuals use to advocate for change, WITHOUT providing solutions. You need to go read Stephanie's Constructive Criticism. <br /><br />As an awesome female postdoc once said to me. don't tell me the obstacles, tell the solutions.ScientistMotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02540317551396323613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-19991413388042484192010-06-16T21:01:17.474-07:002010-06-16T21:01:17.474-07:00Padraig - you're being lazy and I don't ha...Padraig - you're being lazy and I don't have time to be educating you at this moment. And you're doing a bunch of double speak which is annoying me. This isn't comparing men with non-traditional roles to women with careers. It was about the fact that the perception is that work/life balance is a women's issue. At least we can agree its not. I've given you the links to ScientistMotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02540317551396323613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-76338403478934720892010-06-16T20:39:30.165-07:002010-06-16T20:39:30.165-07:00> And, dare I say it, ask (or
> demand!) tha...> And, dare I say it, ask (or<br />> demand!) that others act. <br /><br />Asking, I've got no problem with. Demanding, you're going to have to back that up with more k-nowledge.<br /><br />You can demand that second generation immigrants flatly reject the social norms of their home country and accept feminist ideals. I think that's a pretty bald demand.<br /><br />You can padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-57731887166679680832010-06-16T20:39:19.992-07:002010-06-16T20:39:19.992-07:00@ becca
> It seems to me that there
> are ...@ becca<br /><br />> It seems to me that there <br />> are always plenty of people<br />> to advocate 'don't rock the<br />> boat, let the old eejits <br />> die off'<br /><br />Yes, it seems that way to me, too. I'm not saying a little boat rocking isn't a good idea. Or even a lot of boat rocking.<br /><br />But when you're talking about really complex padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-66231600317288398542010-06-16T20:07:38.898-07:002010-06-16T20:07:38.898-07:00Padraig:
You referred a bunch of people talking a...Padraig:<br /><br />You referred a bunch of people talking about the problems balancing household chores in two career families to blogs written by stay at home dads... by definition not a two career family.<br /><br />The fact that you don't know that motherhood and/or the problems balancing home and career are advanced as reasons that there aren't more women in science shows that you Cloudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09317847285050447789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-42580907101076464002010-06-16T19:43:34.587-07:002010-06-16T19:43:34.587-07:00@padraig-
It seems to me that there are always ple...@padraig-<br />It seems to me that there are always plenty of people to advocate 'don't rock the boat, let the old eejits die off'- from the time of women's suffrage to the Civil Rights struggles of the 60s, and today with e.g. gay marriage. <br /><br />It seems to me that successful movements generally depend on a committed group of people, both moderates and extremists, who are Beccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15356974556397009124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-20412975905848320572010-06-16T17:40:47.768-07:002010-06-16T17:40:47.768-07:00> 7/8 - I'm going to be honest
> and sa...> 7/8 - I'm going to be honest <br />> and say Uh? I'm not sure what<br />> you're saying.<br /><br />Sorry, in the attempt to be clearly general, I got too general :)<br /><br />The original article, and follow up bits by Jim Austin. It's totally fair to point out to Jim that his piece tacitly approves of the status quo, by not mentioning that the status quo ought to bepadraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-33712281658134945802010-06-16T17:27:35.062-07:002010-06-16T17:27:35.062-07:00@ ScientistMother
The distinction between maligna...@ ScientistMother<br /><br />The distinction between malignant directed action and established biases is important because they have different mitigation strategies. This coming from the security wonk.<br /><br />If someone is abusing a position of authority for sex-bias, that's a particular problem that can be addressed particular ways.<br /><br />If someone is dealing with established padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-5975773858440828252010-06-16T17:12:09.642-07:002010-06-16T17:12:09.642-07:00@ Kate
> mansplainer
Nice job of encouraging ...@ Kate<br /><br />> mansplainer<br /><br />Nice job of encouraging that dialogue!padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-84932684978547811282010-06-16T17:10:23.497-07:002010-06-16T17:10:23.497-07:00> Could it be that we're being
> told th...> Could it be that we're being<br />> told that this problem is<br />> the reason we're not <br />> advancing in our fields? <br /><br />If you are, the person saying that is a moron. You can quote me on that :)<br /><br />> No, there is no sexism. It <br />> is just that women are <br />> having such a hard time<br />> balancing their work and <br />> home padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-85574998590663239792010-06-16T17:10:17.064-07:002010-06-16T17:10:17.064-07:00> (Here's an experiment for
> you: go g...> (Here's an experiment for <br />> you: go google "work-life<br />> balance" or "dual career<br />> couples" and check the gender<br />> distribution of what you find.<br /><br />I'll grant you that you're going to find more women talking about it than men. So?<br /><br />I think its eminently plausible that this is due to the fact that women are padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-33887031774579137922010-06-16T17:09:45.116-07:002010-06-16T17:09:45.116-07:00@ Cloud
> I think you just enjoy a good
> a...@ Cloud<br /><br />> I think you just enjoy a good<br />> argument and like showing off<br />> how well you understand the<br />> mechanics of arguing. <br /><br />First part, guilty. Second, well, if you're talking about making an actual argument, you better understand mechanics. <br /><br />> Fine. But this isn't just a<br />> fun argument for me or the<br />> padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-48453050112536263632010-06-16T16:55:56.221-07:002010-06-16T16:55:56.221-07:00Padraig - I comment on PLS blog regularly. When he...Padraig - I comment on PLS blog regularly. When he talked about leaving the wee one at daycare, I left comments and talked to him about it.<br /><br />IRL i have engaged with male PI's who have talked about. One sought me out to find out how they could help their grad student who was having kid (since I am a grad student with a kid) He wanted to know how to support her and we had an excellentScientistMotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02540317551396323613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-79997564180850892662010-06-16T16:49:26.937-07:002010-06-16T16:49:26.937-07:00Okay - I'm leaving 1-3 since we agree on them
...Okay - I'm leaving 1-3 since we agree on them<br /><br />(3&4) what do you mean by malignant directed action? Can we keep this to just work/life stuff. Because to say there is no malignant directed action against the female experience is incorrect. Sexual harassment in the workplace, violence against women, oppression of women's choice - I don't want to get into that. <br /><br />ScientistMotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02540317551396323613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-87213732205581156232010-06-16T16:17:27.600-07:002010-06-16T16:17:27.600-07:00I can't believe it took me so long to realize ...I can't believe it took me so long to realize Padraig is a mansplainer. I am so glad he can school me on these issues.Katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16995641658376827290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-53719664063505908472010-06-16T16:16:55.050-07:002010-06-16T16:16:55.050-07:00Lest anyone think I'm simply trying to troll-v...Lest anyone think I'm simply trying to troll-via-word count, here's a post I wrote yesterday (published today after an edit run):<br /><br />http://padraic2112.wordpress.com/2010/06/16/these-things-i-assume-to-be-true/padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-70342143981306767892010-06-16T16:05:42.564-07:002010-06-16T16:05:42.564-07:00Ah well, at least we're now closer to discussi...Ah well, at least we're now closer to discussing the actual issue than what looks to have been a misunderstanding. Who knew the internet could ever blow something like that up into a full-on pile-on controversy...?Cath@VWXYNot?https://www.blogger.com/profile/01164268321173313605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-27249512768720671102010-06-16T15:59:12.612-07:002010-06-16T15:59:12.612-07:00@Padraig- I think you just enjoy a good argument a...@Padraig- I think you just enjoy a good argument and like showing off how well you understand the mechanics of arguing. Fine. But this isn't just a fun argument for me or the other women commenting here. This issue, and the BS societal expectations that surround it, have a real impact on our lives. Does it impact your life? If you answered no, think about what that means.<br /><br />I haven&#Cloudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09317847285050447789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-83084230451068911732010-06-16T15:45:05.737-07:002010-06-16T15:45:05.737-07:00To clarify the last: is this particular issue of w...To clarify the last: is this particular issue of work/life balance being perceived as sex-linked *really* indicative of something that you deeply believe needs to be changed? If so, why haven't you engaged the community of men who discuss it?<br /><br />Maybe the men who you *want* to discuss it would be more amenable (or able, if restricted by relationship obligations) to doing so, if it padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-41453858620389383192010-06-16T15:44:58.367-07:002010-06-16T15:44:58.367-07:00Let me rephrase my commentary. It seems that we h...Let me rephrase my commentary. It seems that we have a number of different issues flying around, and I want to make sure we're (you and I, that is) are talking about the same things.<br /><br />One. I agree and will accept, for the purposes of this discussion, that there are measurable differences between the male and female experience in the workplace (science or no).<br /><br />Two. I padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-34608031107741414542010-06-16T15:44:39.463-07:002010-06-16T15:44:39.463-07:00@ ScientistMother
> How do you measure how thi...@ ScientistMother<br /><br />> How do you measure how things<br />> are perceived. <br /><br />I dunno, I'm just an armchair sociologist. I grok social science research methods just fine, though. Besides, in this particular conversation, I'm not the one with the hypothesis, I don't have to come up with a measure. I'm asking if *you* have one, and under what grounds you padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-37763260256897072952010-06-16T14:50:05.975-07:002010-06-16T14:50:05.975-07:00Padraig - You now have me confused How do you mea...Padraig - You now have me confused How do you measure how things are perceived. Most look at popular culture. You may not think our anecdotal evidence is valid, but I think the large number of respondents in Isis's post supports it. <br /><br /><i>is the lack of visible instances of these discussions in a particular media truly a measure of whether or not men think something is or isn't ScientistMotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02540317551396323613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-65780503343247978242010-06-16T14:11:59.726-07:002010-06-16T14:11:59.726-07:00@ Kate
> Padraig, I think you're arguing
&...@ Kate<br /><br />> Padraig, I think you're arguing<br />> from a false assumption, that<br />> societal revolution does happen<br />> and is useful.<br /><br />No, actually, I argued that it can be useful, and also that it might not be. It never occurred to me that someone might argue that it doesn't happen.<br /><br />> Look, we all think we'll do<br />> it padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-92058858447735823282010-06-16T14:11:45.457-07:002010-06-16T14:11:45.457-07:00@ Cloud
> We're looking for the perspectiv...@ Cloud<br /><br />> We're looking for the perspective<br />> of the male half of a dual<br />> career couple.<br /><br />Honestly, have you looked for it? I mean, really, actively looked for it? I assure you that there are indeed people who blog about this sort of thing, and I would be astounded if you couldn't find this by looking for it.<br /><br />So is the issue that you padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-97947582899206598.post-84967216730723996692010-06-16T14:11:36.812-07:002010-06-16T14:11:36.812-07:00@ ScientistMother
> You don't buy the prem...@ ScientistMother<br /><br />> You don't buy the premise that<br />> work/life balance is perceived<br />> as women's issue or that having<br />> men talk about it will change<br />> that perception?<br /><br />Perceived as a women's issue by whom? Is it actually perceived as a women's issue, or are you using a proxy metric that perhaps doesn't completely padraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567721244433276365noreply@blogger.com